Ask Dan & Jennifer

If two things, sex and exchanging money, are legal when done seperately, then it is hard to justify them being a serious crime when done together. I believe the moral high ground is recognizing the horrible effects of prostitution being outlawed. It puts the life of the prostitute at risk. Were it taxed and regulated, all would be better off (except for the pimp). To think we can stop the oldest profession is so naive!

Exactly. The pimp industry would take a serious hit, they'd have to enter the traditional service sector, perhaps go back to school and bone up on hospitality management.

Of course then you'd be on a roll and might as well legalize drugs, but I don't know... that that would seriously jeopardize the gang warfare industry, and would seriously eat into the DEA's budget... plus they wouldn't' be able to [unconstitutionally] seize property from people anymore. Like everything else, black markets can be very profitable, but with very few winners.

Check out the recent discussion we had on legalizing prostitution: 'http://forum.askdanandjennifer.com/topic/brothel-bus-busted-in-miami-yet-another-reason-why-prostitution-should-be-legal'

Yeah, I got on my soapbox... we try to stay away from politics, but it's life I guess.

Dan

Should it be legalized? Well, it hasn't hurt anything in Nevada, and other places in the world. If legalized, it can be regulated. Mandatory STD screening, eliminating the criminal elements (pimps, drugs, etc,) efforts leading to the elimination of the sex slave trade (yes, there is still slavery in the world,) and taxed (ok, maybe not an improvement for the profession.)

Personally, I wouldn't be a customer; I prefer a lover to a sex partner. But, other people will be willing to frequent such services regardless of legality. Let's apply some common sense to the problem and keep people from killing themselves and others.

Last thought on the topic, a quote by my favorite author Robert Heinlein:

"A whore should be judged by the same criteria as other professionals offering services for pay -- such as dentists, lawyers, hairdressers, physicians, plumbers, etc. Is she professionally competent? Does she give good measure? Is she honest with her clients?

"It is possible that the percentage of honest and competent whores is higher than that of plumbers and much higher than that of lawyers. And enormously higher than that of professors."

Of course it should be legal.

In the infamous words of the great George Carlin: "Selling is legal, fucking is legal, so why isn't selling fucking legal?" :p

Originally posted by: Exavion
Of course it should be legal.

In the infamous words of the great George Carlin: "Selling is legal, fucking is legal, so why isn't selling fucking legal?" :p

Well said indeed! If anyone missed it, check out 'http://forum.askdanandjennifer.com/topic/george-carlin-religion-is-bullshit-video'. It even kept my attention (Dan) and that is no small feat indeed; well worth watching.

I agree with Brock. As long as the men and women providing the service as well as those supporting it are doing so by their own will, I see no problem with it. I personally would never support such an industry, but I understand why someone would and its no business of mine to tell people what to do with their money and sex life.

Certainly, no one wants hookers in their back yard or on their street corner (atleast most people I know lol), but I think its something that could be zoned, just like every other industry in this country.

Like Brock said, this way the "service providers" could be screened to make sure that they're clean from disease, which would help stop the spread of AIDS/HIV, especially in the LGBT community, where "unclean" prostitution is becoming an increasingly large problem.

I think most people would find that their communities and lives wouldn't be changed at all by the legalization of prostitution. Prostitutes' lives would be improved because it would be much safer, and pimps would become much less successful because people would no longer need to go to shady places and deal with shady people.

I guess part of me is weird on this issue: mostly because prostitutes, in the sense of "street walkers" usually just make me feel some pity. most of those women are not in good situations.

BUT, as Brothels are legal in Nevada, I have no problem with that. Or even Escort Services. They are a legitimate set up for the sake of safety of their girls (maybe even guys... i haven't actually been to a brothel) and customers. If things are agreed upon, and nobody gets hurt in any way (unless they are masochistic or heavily B&D or something else), I don't see why they shouldn't have their practices and not be harrassed.

I guess where I get flustered would be if my husband/guy goes to one without my knowledge. Especially when I'm more than willing to try most things, dress any way or anything. Although I get "Variety is the Spice of Life", I don't want to have that type of betrayal. In the sense of politics or using such businesses in ways, I think politicians make mountains out of mole hills in most cases. Even in nevada if politician is known about brothels, they get in political crapola. I guess if they are being unfaithful to their wives, at least in the respect they are doing so in secrecy, then they are dooming themselves to their own political crash.

Althought, With the whole Elliot Spitzer thing, I found the whole situation ironic. Since he was the hard core "clean up" guy in NYC, there he was with the very people he was putting in jail for such activities. So, I have no sympathy for the guy. As for other "escorts", I haven't had any problems with such political issues. I just wish politicians would be honest, which will never happen, and try to stick to more important issues.

Maybe I should go check out a Brothel. Although, Contrary to popular belief and the whole idea of "Sin City", the entire of Clark County (where Las Vegas resides) has made prostitution illegal. No brothels are found in the cities.. I am sure thre are "special services" at other places. There have been crack downs on such places, like massage parlors, strip clubs, etc. Isn't that a bit Ironic? :)

Here is a list of Mafia owned businesses which use captive prostitutes on a large scale & get away with it. Punishing them for seeking help by using them in exreme internet porn such as bestiality sites etc. If prostitution was outlawed it would be a less profitable business for them. http://s216605257.websitehome.co.uk/traffick1.html

I have nothing else to add than my support to the first responses of this thread. Yes I am all for it.

Originally posted by: keeef
Here is a list of Mafia owned businesses which use captive prostitutes on a large scale & get away with it. Punishing them for seeking help by using them in exreme internet porn such as bestiality sites etc. If prostitution was outlawed it would be a less profitable business for them.

Hi keeef, I see that you mean well and don't want to see women who happen to be prostitutes be attacked, abused, etc - more than you'd like that to happen to your hairdresser. But please read the article that started this thread as well as the rest of this thread.

Although your intentions are good, fact is you can't actually stop something like prostitution by making laws against it and criminalizing it. Selling sex has been around since the beginning of time, either in exchange for cash or services or fine dinners for that matter.

Government just chooses to make certain sex transactions illegal, which has no real benefit to anyone aside from pushing one group's "moralistic" agenda. This is nothing more than government trying to legislate the morality of a certain group to everyone else, without understanding the implications - oppressing everyone else with their "preferences" and driving this industry underground.

Unfortunately it's these very laws against prostitution that create the black market and indirectly facilitate this abuse of these men and women, unsafe conditions for providers and clients, violence, etc.

The fact that it's "against the law" in so many areas just drives it underground, so it is controlled entirely by the local mafia and crime gangs. Instead of being regulated by government - the purpose of which is to protect people not legislate one man's morality on others.

I'd say yes if it would help.

But making it legal could make the problems worse, how do you tell the difference between a slave & a working woman? Its the selling of your body which makes it wrong and illegal.

Lets analyse this.

Business Man rents your body to a fat slob who perhaps has not been screened correctly for diseases, or the tests went wrong...

Actually have YOU ever been to the doctors and had them not be able to help you?

failures are very common in the medical world so congratulations... you had sex with a fat slob and now you have aids.

really was the money worth it?

Its like slavery, Bussiness man sells your body to a fat slob, & now you have you lick butt all day every day, good thing you have aids because its your only way out.

both of these scenarios are pretty bad.

Don't get me started on business and abortion.

The difference between escort services & prostitution, is that the escort can say "no & just hang out" where the prostitute has to say yes or LOSE THEIR JOB.

So you make it legal? great! a lot of people are still going to have to sell their body to feed themselves...

This is also the difference between slavery & consensual slavery in certain bdsm circles.

Its a pro-choice thing, choice about your body, not a choice about having sex, a choice about disease & life & death.

& remember you don't get a choice who to have sex with, they just walk into your room (or get pushed in, in their wheel chair).

If you think it could work with choice... then you just created an escort service! Which are legal already!

And also instead of protected sheltered people who like sex making this decision, especially people who wouldn't sleep with a prostitute and have probably never met one, why not ask the people who have been on the wrong end of these "businesses", even if one said "good ideas, yep lets make it legal", I bet 99 would say "no" & the other 10 can't say anything because they had their tongues cut out so they couldn't scream....

Prostitution is slavery, escort services are not.

So I think its just right at the moment, persecute everyone who is conducting prostitution business, & *thumbs up* to the escort services.

& I don't like the poll. Where's the option "leave it alone, its good enough how it is".

This is the one thing I thing I actually agree with governments on.

So for anyone thinking "make prostitution legal" what is stopping acceptable prostitution practices simply becoming an escort service?

& whats even better is after you have got a disease legally you can't work anymore hurrah!

maby in the future where all these diseases can be treated (and every human ever born can be tracked by a unremovable chip implanted into their spinal column, I hear its the next government initiative...),

but not now, not with medical technology as it is.

Agreed, slavery is bad should always be illegal and prosecuted to the full extent of the law. What you are describing when you talk about prostitution is absolutely slavery and people forced into performing sex on command. Unfortunately that's exactly how prostitution works now that the government tries to ban it.

Your argument seems to be based on these assumptions:
1. escort services can provide sex services legally
2. prostitution always involves women being put into slavery against their will
3. sex workers / prostitutes do not have freedom to choose who they will and won't have sex with

Neither of these is correct. First, escort services cannot include sex, or it's illegal, hence my point. What you call escort service is basically an operation that provides escorts for whatever the buyer and seller (read: the sex worker) are willing to agree to.

When we talk about "prostitution" or "sex workers", we are referring to a woman (or man's) choice to exchange sex for cash. Simple as that.

If that person is forced into slavery, that is wrong and of course bad; no way to defend that. However, prostitution (selling sex for cash/goods) has been going on from the beginning of time - the only result of these laws is violence and abuse of sex workers (and sometimes of clients) by the gangs and crime cartels that run them. The "pimps" that enslave these people are indirectly government sanctioned.

What we previously explained is that by removing these laws and enforcing government oversight on these services - as is the case today in Nevada here in the U.S. and in other countries, government can ensure safe working conditions, mandatory regular testing schedule, basic things like "no slavery", etc. And it seems to make everyone feel better when we point out that it becomes a taxable service too - like there's not enough being taxed today, but fine, whatever.

The slavery-based prostitution services would immediately go out of business when the legal ones open up. The consumers wouldn't think about risking going to an illegal operation when they could go to one where they know the girls are tested weekly or whatever, and the state board of whatever is visiting and overseeing operations.

This is how it works with many other service industries, for example hair and nail salons, even plumbers and realtors. When you create an artificial black market for a product / service in incredible demand, remove government oversight (so the government neglects its responsibility of protecting its citizens from violence and abuse) thus leading to crime, abuse, or worse.

Originally posted by: Saishuu
Its the selling of your body which makes it wrong and illegal.

Many people like to make the case that these women shouldn't be selling their bodies for money. That's a noble sentiment, and I congratulate you for believing it. However having an ideal does not give you the right to enforce it on anyone else. Whether you happen to think that a woman should be offering sex for money - or whether I think that she should or shouldn't - frankly matters only to you and to me. It doesn't matter worth squat to anyone else.

There are lots of things that people "shouldn't" do, some which cause disease, suffering, and death. We could say all of these are "wrong", and that's great for us. Take for example overating, or eathing chronically unhealthy fast food. You could argue that the government should ban hamburgers, following the very same logic. You know, make Betty Crocker and Burger King illegal.

The purpose of government in a modern society is to protect people from criminals wishing to do them harm, enslave them, steal, kill, etc. Not to enslave people itself by taking their personal choices away from them. Tyranny is often born of good intentions, i.e. the downward spiral of freedom started by people who think it sure would be nice to have their moral ideals (read: preferences and personal choices) enforced on others by law.

But you are right - the modern "escort service" is exactly what "prostitution" should be - women who are handsomely rewarded for providing their in-demand service, who are protected from harm by the government (actually doing its duty to protect them from harm). With the difference of course that government has no business telling people they can't trade sex for whatever they choose: money, favors, a luxurious lifestyle courtesy of a sugar daddy, expensive jewelry, or even an expensive dinner... :)

I find it terribly amusing that some of the very same two-faced politicians who enact these laws are later caught as customers of sex workers... in fact if you go to the beginning of this thread, that's exaclty how this story started, with our article on the extreme government hypocrisy around "the Washingon Madam" last year.

The good news to all her other hypocrite customers is that she suffered a mysterious accident and died before she was able to implicate more of her high level government official customers. What an amazing coincidence indeed.

Dan

Do brothels have men?? I am wondering... i have never actually been to one, but i know they are mostly women employed...

Just a curious question :)

Originally posted by: GeekyJenn
Do brothels have men?? I am wondering... i have never actually been to one, but i know they are mostly women employed...

Just a curious question :)

Hmmm... thought provoking question. I've never been to one either, but somehow I don't believe that what is probably the single profession that has been around since the beginning of time as we know it... is exclusive to female providers / sex workers.

I can only guess that since brothels are treated as a very unsavory topic in our culture (due to extreme sexophobia and other silly phobias left over from victorian times), we don't hear much about them to begin with - and what we do hear is about the slightly more public straight heterosexual variety.

Surely at some point in time a gay man or a straight woman has paid for services rendered, and a man performed the services. But who am I to say. :)

A google search for "gay brothel" comes back with 1.5 Million results, so it's not a new concept.

And here's the Wikipedia source for "male prostitute" and their definition of Male Brothels...

Male brothels
A hustler may also work in a male brothel or "stable." This is common in South-East Asia (Thailand, Manila) and may also be found in some larger U.S. cities. The pimp is relatively rare in male prostitution in the West, where most hustlers generally work independently or, less frequently, through an agency.[1]
In November 2005, Heidi Fleiss announced that she had partnered with brothel owner Joe Richards to turn Richards' existing Cherry Patch Ranch brothel in Crystal, Nevada into an establishment that would employ male prostitutes and cater exclusively to female customers, a first in Nevada (see Prostitution in Nevada)

The main problem with prostitution laws is they are not enforced evenly. That is why Rhode Island doesn't have prostitution laws. in 1980 C.O.Y.O.T.E. a union of sex workers sued the state because the police were only arresting the sex workers and not the johns. To get out of the case the state changed the laws so sex work became legal "indoors" and the only illegal activity was street solicitation.

By the way COYOTE is Cast Of Your Old Tired Ethics.

While laws should indeed apply evenly to people, I would say that the main problem with prostitution laws is that they are created to push a pseudo moralistic agenda while making the situation worse. These laws actually cause most of the problems erroneously attributed to prostitution.

These points are more clearly illustrated in this thread: 'http://forum.askdanandjennifer.com/topic/craigslist-gives-into-government-religious-crusade-against-prostitution'

Originally posted by: Happy Endings
The main problem with prostitution laws is they are not enforced evenly. That is why Rhode Island doesn't have prostitution laws. in 1980 C.O.Y.O.T.E. a union of sex workers sued the state because the police were only arresting the sex workers and not the johns. To get out of the case the state changed the laws so sex work became legal "indoors" and the only illegal activity was street solicitation.

Actually, RI does have prostitution laws. They just specifically make it illegal to sell sex on the street or in brothels. There's no mention of exchanging money for sex between two adults in private, so it is through a loophole in the law that it is legal rather than overt action on the part of RI to legalize it. There have been several attempts to close that loophole, but they have all failed in the legislature for one reason or another.

There also seems to be this myth (in this thread) that prostitutes are disease carriers, and nothing could be further from the truth. Streetwalkers would be a likely exception. Those prostitutes who work in brothels or as private escorts very rarely have any diseases, though. In Nevada, the girls (there are no men in brothels in NV) are tested every week (at their own expense), and anyone with a disease has her license revoked immediately. There has never been a case of an STD transmission from a prostitute to a customer in NV, btw.

As for escorts, their livelihood rests on their ability to service clients, so they take significant precautions to prevent catching or transmitting anything as well.

As for the legalization of the work, I am a strong proponent of decriminalization of prostitution, with a bit of regulation thrown in. I don't think the government ought to be any more involved in the personal transactions of consenting adults than they are with any other contractual arrangement (which is to say none unless something goes wrong with it). I discuss the specifics of how I would configure it if it were up to me on my blog:

Decriminalization vs. Legalization | The 'Real' Princess Diaries

Much of what I proposed is a USA-ified version of what might work here based on the model adopted in New Zealand, where prostitution was legalized in 2003 (with no problems involving trafficking, minors engaged in the work, etc., that many people like to use as straw arguments against legalization).

Suffice it to say, however, that I don't believe streetwalking ought to be legalized (largely due to the safety of those involved and the quality of life issues that neighborhoods would face if it were allowed to flourish). I would require that sex workers be tested and present evidence of those tests to clients who wished to see it, but I would prohibit the government from licensing or regulating specific workers' in any way. All of this I explain in that blog post, so I won't bore you with the details that you can read there.

In the words of the late, great George Carlin, I never have understood why it's illegal to sell something that it's perfectly legal to give away.

The way i see it is

If a woman is willing to have sex with a man and get paid

and a man is willing to pay because he wants sex

then why shouldnt it be allowed? prostitution is shoddy street walking thing it is today because of these laws


Look at amsterdam and over parts of europe, they have proven how it can work.

Originally posted by: Brock
Last thought on the topic, a quote by my favorite author Robert Heinlein:

"A whore should be judged by the same criteria as other professionals offering services for pay -- such as dentists, lawyers, hairdressers, physicians, plumbers, etc. Is she professionally competent? Does she give good measure? Is she honest with her clients?

"It is possible that the percentage of honest and competent whores is higher than that of plumbers and much higher than that of lawyers. And enormously higher than that of professors."

Seems every time I turn around these days, I'm running into Robert A. Heinlein. Not that that's a bad thing, of course!

"Skyways Soap is as pure as the sky itself"

(sarcasm) Huh, thought it was A.O.K...

Man and woman have sex. If both enjoy it a lot, then the woman gets a ring and a title! seems like prostitution to me! (/sarcasm)

All kidding aside, the legalization of prostiution seems (to me, at least) very similar to the gay marriage issue (going to try and not derail this)

Both seem like perfectly normal things, but they have VERY fierce opponents. Though I agree that illegalizing prostitution is not the best idea, as everything stands right now, it would probably cause a major backlash from the moral conservatives. Still, maybe someday everyone will just lighten up and things can be as they should be *shrug*

Please forgive me, I'm new to this whole forum thing >.<

a couple of years ago and there are no problems. But I don't think NZ prostitution is as "hardcore" as US prostitution.

I think making it legal would solve some of the problems. Much of vice squads efforts and resources are wasted to get rid of the sex trade one pimp at a time but if it was legal and zoned to certian parts of the city or area then vice squads could actually use more of their resources to get rid of the slave side of the sex industry instead of what would be a legit.

I also think it should taxed and regulated. Regulated so the customer is protected from contracting a disease -- every service has a risk but if regulated it would be minimized. A prostitute should be required to get a license and have her health regularly screened -- STD of any kind and your out of work until taken care of. Of course, if pregnancy results questions would vary as to who is repsonsible for the child.
1. You took the risk honey -- the guy was a client for sex not possible fatherhood -- your on your own to
2. Guy still responsable

Your also going to have the issue of age to both be a client and a service provider so to speak. Some of the Europian countries have really lowered the age for legal sex. It would be an issue.

My point is this now the question is -- legal or illegal?

If legal, then understnad their is going ot be a whole bag full of issues instead of one.

This is one area where Robert Heinlein, St. Augustine (felt prostitution was a necessary evil) and I agree and that doesn't happen very often. With St. Augustine I mean.:D Heinlein and I agree more often than not.

No government has any right to interfere with a person's sex life, but if prostitution is not managed it can cause dire consequences. I am personally not into prostitution but is must be legalized.

Another benefit of the legalization of prostitution is that there will be a certain legal framework to it, which would save young girls from employing themselves there. The fact that a lot of young, underage ladies are forced into prostitution is very alarming, and the numbers will continue soaring unless certain laws and serious penalties are applied.

I agree to legalizing. The only reason things like this (and MaryJanes) are illegal is so that only a few can use them to get a 'foothold' above everybody else.

Supply and demand.
If you can eliminate or minimize the supply, demand is much higher, so you can charge alot more than something is worth (all things are really PRICELESS, or WORTHLESS). It's just "following the money".

This model is also the same as what the banking cartels use:
Take in everybody's money for "security". Not everybody would need or want to carry all their money at once, so most people left it at the bank. The bankers got wise to this and realized they could lend more money than they had, and nobody would notice. Then they decided to make it "taxable", by adding interrest rates nobody can effectively pay back. It's the same with every "underground trade". Offer more returns, take in as much as possible initially, give back as little as possible, and take even more back, essentially getting alot for alot of nothing.

Hi,
I think it should stay, because if we let the government care about our sex life, they'll want to care about other stuff and other stuff. So maybe if they made special areas for prostitution? So that people wouldn't or couldn't hide to pick up a woman, maybe even some people would stop because they'd be too shy to go in front of people, because they usually picked them up from dark alleys or something like that. Anyways, I just think it would help both the users (I'm running out of words) and the prostitutes because if they had areas, they could also have a little park and benches and.. I don't know, it just seems less scary and more inviting to me haha.
So yeah, if it was supervised by people in order for the prostitutes not to smoke weed or break stuff, that would most-likely work :) But I'm not saying only prostitutes smoke weed, anyone could, but yeah since we can't hide most of them do it..
Anyways let's not start talking about who smokes weed and who doesn't, let's just say prostitution doesn't seem quite illegal to me, just a bit unhealthy and dangerous sometimes.. Maybe it is not, but that's just the vision it gives and THAT should be changed ^^

I don't know personally, I think that, on one hand, banning something means we lose all control over it...however, does that mean would should legalise murder also?

It is a fine line to hit isn't it?

The big difference is that murder is a crime against a person. I suppose there might be rare cases where one person tells another, "I'll give you $200 to shoot me dead," but I'd imagine it doesn't happen very often.

Prostitution, OTOH, is something two people agree to do together. It really is a case of "I'll give you $200 to do THIS to me, and THIS and THIS as well. What do you mean that last THIS will cost $50 extra?! You know, across the street I could THIS and THIS and THIS for $175, I just came over here because the girls are prettier. Not $75 prettier."

What is the difference between pornography and prostitution?
The porn star is paid for sex. The prostitute is paid for sex.
Thought for you.

In porn, you aren't paid to have sex. You have sex for free, but you are paid to be recorded having sex.

Have I said or done something to offend somebody? On YouTube, I find that I'm no longer subscribed to Dan & Jennifer, that I can't subscribe, and that I can't comment on videos. Could I be told what I did, given another chance, and I can promise not to do it again?:confused:

If they make it legal than they can tax it, charge licensing fees, and make it safer for partakers. I think it would also cut down on rape cases since sex would be readily available to everyone. Let's face is, prostitution has been around since the dawn of time and it's not going anywhere so we might as well work with it rather than against.

Writing is like prostitution. First you do it for love, and then for a few close friends, and then for money.
Moliere

Quote for you. Is writing illegal?
Another quote:

Marriage is for women the commonest mode of livelihood, and the total amount of undesired sex endured by women is probably greater in marriage than in prostitution.
Bertrand Russell

Fair enough.
Ok, these are jokes, but they do have a point.