Ask Dan & Jennifer

making your intentions known, either verbally or physically, early enough in the relationship.

Also, attraction and compatibility probably is a determining factor.

Originally posted by: Dawoel
ended up in a lot of friend zones

what is it that separates men who women merely want to be friends with, and men who they want to spend the rest of their lives with?

Confidence is the number-one factor in a man's ability to be successful with women. Although looks and financial status help, confidence trumps them both.

If you're winding up in the friendzone you almost certainly suffer from what Dr. Glover calls "Nice Guy Syndrome." As a frequent visitor to the friend zone, I have decided I have a lot of those traits myself.

check out No More Mr. Nice Guy and see if the description applies to you. The book is excellent, but you can get it cheaper from Amazon.

Please go there and read the description of Nice Guy Syndrome and let me know if you think it applies to you.

(I'm not affiliated with the author or the website.)

Thank you for the advice, I have suspected that I have "nice-guy" syndrome myself. However now I'm not so sure... I think I'm probably border line, because I'm having real difficulty answering these...

In general, nice guys share the following characteristics:

- Nice guys seek the approval of others: What exactly do you mean by this? I don't govern my life on what everyone else wants if that's what you mean, but neither do I show a lack of regard, or respect for other's opinions. I DO care what people think of me, but I don't sacrifice who I am because I wouldn't know how to be anyone else.
- Nice guys try to hide their perceived flaws and mistakes: Again, what does this actually mean? I don't actually know how to be anyone other than who I am, I act as me, I am myself all the time. I don't pretend not to have the flaws I have because that would be pointless, I can't just imagine them out of existence because that would be a lie. But, that's part of the problem, who I genuinely am, is not getting me anywhere.
- Nice guys put other people's needs and wants before their own: To the contray I have my own needs and wants close to heart much of the time! If I didn't I wouldn't be writing what I am now, but, that doesn't mean that I am selfish. I'm not selfish or selfless, I'm fair.
- Nice guys sacrifice their personal power and often play the role of a victim: Like I said I'm not selfish or selfless I'm fair. You reep what you sow, and though I have sowed much I have obviously been sowing in the wrong field because nothing appears to be growing! But nature knows that it takes more than effort, you have to know what your doing, its not that I'm not trying, I'm just not trying in the right way, because I don't actually know how!
- Nice guys tend to be disconnected from other men and from their own masculine energy: No not at all, I get along great with my male friends. I get along great with my female friends also, that's the problem, those that I wish where something more always become friends no matter how much I flirt or how quickly. What really bothers me is that they are always flattered, tell me that I'm a lovely attractive guy and that they are sure many girls will (or do) fancy me or whatever, but that I am not their type or something lame like that. Its so cliche its embarressing, I don't blame them for it, if they don't fancy me they don't fancy me, I can't force attraction on someone, I just wish sometimes that they wouldn't give me such false hope as to say "you are attractive", when I see absolutely no evidence for that whatsoever! If I'm so attractive where are all the attracted people? Because its as if, either they are not actually there and these girls are lying, or, they are there but want me to do all the work for them.
Nice guys co-create relationships that are less than satisfying: Ok, that's true.
- Nice guys create situations in which they do not have very much good sex: Um...I guess, that's true of anyone who isn't getting as much great sex as they would like, this isn't exactly restricted to nice guys, the exact same could be said of men who are extremely arrogant!
- Nice guys frequently fail to live up their full potential: What terrifies me though is this NOT being true as much as it being true. If it's true then I'm wasting part of my life, and if its false then this is the limit of potential, in which case my potential simply isn't good enough because I am far from satisfied with the situation!

Looking at these questions I would assume that "nice-guy" basically means, "pushover", which I most definately am not. If it's clear a girl doesn't fancy me, or doesn't like me as a person, or both, then I back off, I know it wouldn't work so why bother? Plus, if a girl whom I fancy is being properly unreasonable, I will not let the fact that I fancy her bias my judgement in what is clearly a very important situation! So no, I'm not a push over, so no, I don't think I have got "nice-guy" syndrome...I'm polite, compassionate and generous but I won't let myself be used, I'm not like that.

Buuuuut, what then is the problem? Because its one thing "just being yourself", but what if "yourself" is not getting you anywhere?

I can forsee three other possibilities...

1) Lacking compatibility: My last relationship was near perfect, we really couldn't have been more compatible. And after we separated, which, to rub salt in the wound was not actually our choice (albeit an attempt to reunite ultimately failed due to having lived without each other for over a year & had thus changed substantially), the great gap in my life seemed impossible to fill. To be honest, I don't think I'm compatible with very many people, it takes a very special kind of person to really connect with someone like me.
2) Lacking confidence: I'm not as bad at this as others I know, but I'm not exactly what you would call overly brave (unless mine of a loved one's life is in jepardy that is, yes, that has happened before). I used to be, I used to be gain for anything, then I grew up and became slightly more sensible, but as a result, take less risks. I never really fancy my luck, and never play poker!
3) Simply Ugly: I really, REALLY hope this isn't true...

First, let me compliment you on your willingness to follow through. You looked into this and gave me information I can use. That says a lot about you, and your character.

The chief characteristic of a Nice Guy is that they are constantly seeking the approval of others. It sounds like that may not apply to you, but you probably have some traits or you wouldn't be getting relegated to the "friend zone." You can forget the "Ugly" hypothesis. Only about 30% of a man's success with women is related to physical attractiveness. Unless you're frightening people on the street, that's probably not the issue.

Based on the new information, I'm going to bet your problem is a lack of confidence with women. I'm going to recommend another resource for you, that helped me considerably when I was a young man and learning to date. I went from absolutely hopeless with women to dating quite successfully, so I can say the techniques work. It does a good job of helping you look at yourself.

Amazon.com: Intimate Connections (9780451148452): David D. Burns: Books

I'm not affiliated with Dr. Burns or Amazon.

One technique I recommend is going to one of these girls, and telling them you want an honest answer and asking her "What do you think is keeping me from being more successful with women?" That lets her know that you already know there's a problem, so she will give you honest feedback instead of "Oh, you're just wonderful."

If you keep working this hard, you will make progress. Please keep me aprised of how it's going. We'll be here if you have further questions.

Very interesting you say that because I was just now in the kitchen talking to my flat mate (who is a woman, and who is one of the women who I quite fancied, asked out, she realised early on, but, told me she didn't fancy me but that I was a lovely attractive blah blah blah...albeit her exact words where actually a stabable offense; "you know I love you S***n, but like a friend, like an older brother", and to be fair I told her so at the time, telling a guy who fancies you he is like her "older brother" is liking telling a woman she would look good 3 dress sizes bigger! Its one of the worst things you can say because its damning with faint praise, like being kissed by an electric eel!)

Sorry I got carried away there, anyway, I was talking to her just now and the subject of relationships cropped up. She told me her problem was being shy with people in general, at which point I just said "fair enough but its amazing how many people arn't raging psychos if you just talk to them, its awsome how many normal people are out there, besides, if they morons then just make your little excuses and leave problem solved, that's what I do"...and she said "merh", as one does, and then I said, "Do you think I'm shy?" and she said "not with people in general like me, albeit I've never seen you just go up to someone and say "hi", you always seem to find an excuse. Its girls you fancy your shy with"...

So yes she (and you) are probably right there, I think that is an accurate description of me. It's not that I'm scared of people, because I don't like a person or he/she doesn't like me, its not like I'm under any kind of moral obligation to be friends with them, and if they are work collegues I still don't need to be friends with them, just...tollerate them, if you know what I mean. But I do have a different attitude when it comes to people I fancy, so, I can kinda see the pattern.

(Thinks for a moment...(I study philosophy, you can probably tell, I'm into solving problems)).

I think I have discovered the problem (albeit not the solution unfortunately). The problem I think is that I fear to lose what I do not have, if that makes any sense. I'm not afraid of making friends, because I know that if I fail, I already have friends to fall back on, and I am not afraid of losing those friends, because I know those friends, and everyday that give me more and more reason to believe that they will not abandon me. I short, I have evidence for believing that my friends will stay, ergo, I have rather large safety net where friendship is concerned. I have reason to be optimistic where friendships are concerned due to evidence for reliability.

But intimate relationships are a totally different kettle of fish! I do not have any current intimate relationships to fall back on (because that would be cheating (unless its open, which isn't my style)), and all the one's I have had, ever, have ultimately failed. Ergo, the evidence I have for the reliability of intimate relationships is far more cynical and pessimistic, and so I'm far more cautious and fearful in this area. So in a sense I am afraid of losing a relationship before it has even began, and undoubtedly that is influencing my behaviour.

Because, when I talk to attractive women, I dunno, I guess I'm too...safe? Thinking not acting. Always looking for the right words, the right gestures when in reality none exist, because there is no "right" way to pull, because what turns women on is highly subjective, every woman is different, there are few if any universal rules. So the best method would (I guess) be to gradually discover each other, and if it works it works and if it doesn't it doesn't. Unfortunately this is a method I'm two afraid to use, uou know the kinda thing asking myself silly questions like:

- "My god she's beautiful, merh, she's way outa your league, don't even bother, she is probably really cynical about guys because she gets hit on all the time and is sick of it, and won't give you a chance, either that or she's really arrogant and will try to use you for free drinks or money..." Silly because its A) Throwing out assumptions left right and center, you don't actually know that she is arrogant or cynical until you try & B) Hypocritical because here is you accusing her of not giving you a fair chance or being cynical, when this very attitude is increadibily cynical!

- "Oh god, what do I say?" I dunno use your imagination, any excuse to start a conversation works really so long as its not totally absurd, (provided you actually have a legitimate excuse, its always there its just not always easy to spot), and then proceed from there, and then gradually and subtly express sexual interest in her (again not easy because A) People annoying play hard to get and B) 90% of what's being said isn't coming out of your mouth but in one's body language, which unfortunately I'm rubbish at reading)

- "What kind of questions do I ask her?" Open questions about stuff that interests her (or you think might interest her), because closed questions can be answered with a yes or a no, and then you've hit a dead end and have to come up with a new subject which is a pain in the ass!

- "How much do I tell her?" That which is actually interesting (or you think might interest her, yes this is difficult, I guess that is a practice thing), and unless your the most boring person in the entire world there is always something interesting, you just need to find it.

- "What do I tell her if she asks me something?" Uh, the truth? If your gonna actually connect with this person properly, she's gonna find out the truth sooner or later so she might as well find out now before both of you get hurt.

- "But what if its embarressing?" Great! Fantastic, embarressing stories are the best because they are A) Hilarious if told right & B) Shows her your not perfect and are thus real (because if he's too good to be true, somethings wrong).

- "& if its actually immoral, creepy, disgusting or just plain problematic on my part?" Then that depends entirely on whether or not it is still a problem, if its a problem you want to solve, how ashamed you are of it, whether you have learned from your mistake etc... If its still a problem but you want the problem then if she is actually worthy of you she will empathise and help you through it (e.g. proper women don't run away from erectile dysfunction or the fact that your medically handicapped in general). If you've learned from your mistakes, a proper woman will forgive (if your an X-Criminal for example). To be fair if your an x-pedophile this will be very, VERY difficult. And if its a problem you don't want solving, then why are you even talking to her? (e.g. if you still ARE a rapist then why are you wasting your time on someone you know full well will and should reject you?)


Thinks again...

Ok, I guess I DO know what to do and how, but there is a difference between knowing how to do something, and actually doing it...and that's the problem I've yet to solve, how do I summon up the motivation/confidence to actually go forth and do all this?

Help?

You've already taken the first step. Just becoming aware changes things. As you go through your day, you'll notice yourself striking up conversations with girls.

I've visited the friend zone more times than I can count. They way out is just to start making the interactions romantic. Put your hand on her shoulder, take her hand to guide her somewhere, help her out of the car, etc. Move slowly, but make it impossible for her to consider you a friend! To do this, you're going to have to push your comfort zone.

Get the book I recommended. Get feedback from other people on here. Remember, in love fortune favors the bold. If you are overtly romantic, they can't send you to the friend zone. They may tell you to go to hell, but they won't send you to the friend zone.

Hey thanks for your honesty in your postings; this sounds like an issue you've thought about a lot, and struggled with, and are at the point of being ready to make some changes with. That's half the battle won already. Here's a little feedback and some suggestions for you:

It sounds to me like you might be over-analysing things. You're obviously a very smart guy, and the problem with us smart guys is we over-analyse. And the irony here is that the analytical part of our brains, which are a relatively recent development in evolutionary terms, override the more basic part of our brain related to mating. So too much analysis is particularly counter productive here.

I am a recovering Nice Guy, and although you question whether you have the main symptoms, I suspect it may be part of the problem. Have a look at my posting on Recovering From Nice Guy Syndrome, and let us know if you can relate. Don't think about it, just see how you feel about it.

Ultimately, the results you get depend on your behaviour. You can change your behaviour via soul-searching, therapy and analysis (i.e. take a cognitive approach); but you can end up spending a lot of time navel-gazing. Or you can learn new social skills (i.e. take a behavioural approach). I've done both, and nowadays recommend the behavioural. Are you good at flirting/teasing? I highly recommend you check out my article on How to Flirt With A Woman.

If those ring true, then the stuff in my book on dating and attraction could really hit the nail on the head for you. And yes, I am affiliated with the book I recommend... I wrote it!

Good luck!
Graham